The bottom line of my argument doesn’t change - I still believe that phrase (”separation of church and state”) is grossly misused to justify a complete cleansing of religious thought/action from public life.

Thanks again for pointing out the Danbury issue.

Thomas, thank you for your insightful comment. I’ll follow your link later and respond in more detail at that point (hopefully I get a moment tonight).

Jeremy, language as action…versus ideas as action - an interesting issue. I think at this point in history, Jefferson would have considered language as an opinion, not an action - for an opinion is typically thought of as what one expresses outloud, their point of view on a particular topic. If not spoken with language, how would one know anyone’s opinion? I’ll have to look into this; I really appreciate your input.

(1) It is not true that Jefferson was the only founder that used the phrase “separation of church and state.” James Madison used the phrase on a number of occasions, as well as phrases similar in import. See http://candst.tripod.com/tnppage/qmadison.htm for some of these uses. His usage is vastly more important than Jefferson’s since, unlike Jefferson, Madison was a major player in the writing of the Constitution.

(2) The Danbury Baptists’ complaint had nothing to do with the religious liberty provisions of the federal Constitution. The “ancient charter” spoken of in the letter referenced the Connecticut Constitution adopted “at the time of our revolution,” not the federal one. The Baptist complaint was that the Connecticut Constitution did not prohibit the state from legislating about religious matters. As a consequence, they argued that “…what religious privileges we [Baptists] enjoy (as a minor part of the state) we enjoy as favors granted, and not as inalienable rights: and these favors we receive at the expense of such degrading acknowledgements as are inconsistent with the rights of freemen.” The term “degrading acknowledgements” referred to the Connecticut system of allowing each town to determine which church it would support with public monies. Since Connecticut was overwhelmingly Congregationalist, it meant that most Baptists were forced against their will to contribute to Congregationalist Churches.

The Baptists would have loved something like a First Amendment in their state Constitution, since it would have made their religious liberty a matter of right, and not a mere favor granted by Government. There concern in the letter was not to object that the Constitution contained a First Amendment, but that the Connecticut Constitution lacked a similar guarantee. I think this is the opposite of your reading.

My prayers will mingle with yours. Religious tyranny does seems to be gaining ground in the form of tolerance for anything but Christianity.

Veggie Mom, thank you much, and I’ll come check out your giveaway later…

Mandi, thanks for the recommendation of that show. You make a very important point about other “religion” like atheism or humanism being taught, mostly indirectly but nonetheless, in our public schools. There is no neutrality.

Sheila, years ago I read that letter from the Danbury Baptists and it really didn’t resonate with me like it does today. We sure seem to be at a prophetic point in history.

I was never a journalist, but thanks for the compliment!!

When we become dependent upon government to define for us what our freedoms our concerning the ordinances of God and the gospel we hand government more power than God gives it.

I think we come upon a point in our own history in America where what the Danbury Baptist’s were concerned about will be proven by those who cling to the freedom that is there’s to worship and serve Jesus as Lord no matter what the government defines as religious freedom.

Were you ever a journalist? You write great stuff! I love it!!!!

thanks
sheila

The fact is there is no way to separate religion from the state. Atheism has crept into our schools and countless other public arenas under the guise of religious neutrality.

Thanks for posting this - I look forward to the rest in this series! ( :

Any chance we could see you guys this week?

Mornings look good.

http://runninggalinsights.blogspot.com/